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that I wasn't getting the support I needed in terms of really cold facts and statements and so forth, which would help me to either go one way or the other. I think the fact that I ended up by not going one way or the other is because I never was entirely convinced one way or the other. Hathaway: Is it possible, and this may appear a naive question, but is it possible that in a case such as this, those facts simply don't exist? Helms : It's not only possible, but I think in this case . you'll find out that that was exactly what happened. You see, in discussing in a staff way .a matter of this kind, it's relatively easy for one person to say, "Well, based on the evidence we've seen, we just don't think this man is bona fide." Well, then you say to them, "Well, what are the things that you have assembled that indicate that he's not bona fide?" "Well, we just have a bad feeling about it. There's this and there's that." "Well, could you reduce it just to writing, for a memorandum?" I believe that it was this kind of a situation which was bothering me and where I was pressing them to "stop giving me your impressionistic feeling about this, I want the facts." It was an exasperating case, I must say. Hathaway: And it still is in many respects. Looking back on this, SB Division controlled the case for a long time. It was really not a CI Staff case. The IG 14