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e . ae vho have to obey at all times all tht jules, whether good « brarGrwould you rather have a person witlfsonte in- - ividuality, who might perhaps create something of last- . ng worth for society, but at the same be a problem to ‘ety. Reeause | believe that, of course this is the old -SiNgsS Of the castialion theory, but at the’same time I ‘sak that most people realize that there are ‘those who «0 have problems, and who say that our goal is simply *o make everybody a law abiding citizen without thought of what that might do to research, what it might do to ‘etters, or arts, or artists, pr anything of that nature, why i don’t believe that you'd have a very useful er very pro- ductive, or avery creative society. There are inevitably: oing to be certain conflicts between the indiyidual and ‘he masses at all times, so when you say that you want .o prevent this, I’d have to ask you in turn, do you mean ‘hat your objectite would be at all costs merely people vho obey the law, independent of any consideration whe- her or not that this obeying or submission 0° the law vould essentially mean that, and nothing more.” “When ‘I refer to law or rule, I mean plain com- mon sense or good conduct, which most of the laws are usually based. on. The acts that I am referring to, are armed robbery, armed violence, and mojestation, | and even stealing guns, These (hings I bave known about, and these people are personally intelligtnt, and they have done these things, and have realized what they have done. Now ypu are referring to the indi- vidual’s respect to. the community, or te retain his entity, which I certainly feel is a most. important thing. But the Jaw itself, in reference to the whole community should be applied to them, so this pro- ductivity can cantinue, because these same people may impede the progress of another porductive person by the actions that they commit.” _ “Well, that’s true, of course there has to “be a lHne ‘yawn even if it’s arbitrary, but at the same time, before nis interview began, we mentioned Cellini and Villon, and ihink that they-would have a terrible time in today’s ociety, and yet look what they have left for posterity. ‘{tlon is said to have written some of the finest’ literature nd poetry that France has had, and of course .°. ” “Js that the price to be paid then?” ~' * “Well, in some instancés, it seems to be the story at cast. Now perhaps with the advancement in jisychiatry, owll be able to find ways to channel those drives, and acialize these. people to an-extent more than-we have ‘une in the past. It seems to be, in some instances, in reative fields, the inevitable price that must be paid both -y the individual, and the community. And, of course the “nal answer to that, I’m unable to give you. im merely ‘ble to say that historically, it seems to be the, case.” “while I was in the service, I saw how police in other countries have handied suspects, and I eyen saw that some of the common courtesies were not eve e¢nsidered. As the severity of the case was greatey, the considerition. grew proportionately less.. And have also learned while talking with people in other. countries, and reading, how practices. similar to this eccur by law enformement agencies in these coun- tries, For instances the deputies who are guarding you now They probably never have gotten a salary com- mensurate with the work that they perform. To pro- tect the average hard-working individual who is pro- viding for bis family, raising chifdren, and trying to progress in his ewn way, and probably all he expects is to enjoy the peaceful pursuits of their individual endeavor without fear of molestation. Well, the laws in our country are often based on precedent, and lots of-casss-have been decided on that, we've stauicu that etre ener nenn aernenenatenenplintten isn nperengntttany Anne emt mReG Y. S arta trate HAE et rte SE RO PNA Ets | eA i mene in school]. In ©), of the background of this case;* would _vaufeel that the decision by the court if it were sQ.£0 in your favor and you were set free, what effect k this would have on these people who encies that you hase atnided te. anis would deter then. ur woul n, or would this muke them tnink ij, tne opposite would be true, if what you're get- ; that they might interpret it as a license them- /be more violent. I feet that anyone who is fami)- FA this case at’ all, and certainly there are many au that includes mostly those who have hag difficultje: with the law, have been aware how close I’ve been t« execution so long, and have commented on the nature oa: this ordeal, and how they don't feel that they would like to go through it. I don't believe that they uHimately woulc reach the point where they would rationalize this thing and say ‘well, even though he did ten years in the deatl row, that is still all right because he got out. So I ca: do this, and safely feel that I can get out In the firs: place, if I do get out, it’s only going to be because ulti- }mately there is going to be a decisibn that I wasn’t guilts to begin with on the charges. So that certainly I don’! feel that the potential criminality of someone else car be equated with what might be done with me if the de. cision is in my favor. On the contrary, I think that if would be an experience where they would feel, “well, 1 better watch out for this, or I might wind up, as a con- sequence of: having been on this side of the fence, in a Death Row, in a prison for a long time, because it’s easie once you have been in trouble, te be suspected a seconc time and a third time whether rightly or wrongly.” “Well, how about the notoricty of your case, do you feel that like the bovuks you have written, the press, stories written about you, radio, television, and press. Do you think that this has aided your case, or detracted from it, or would you like to say anything about that?” . . “Yes, I definitely feel that it has impaired my abilit; to get back into court. I feel that there has been so much controversy and such a great atmosphere of hostility and prejudice in view of the nature of. the offenses, that ft'« extremely difficult for the thing to be weighed strictly as g matter of law, and here we run into perhaps one of the greatest problems of all, and that is, at wnat point! is the judiciary completely free to decide a case on it: merits, irrespective of whether it is a popular’ or an un- popular case, and how much public opinion should in- fluence the decision of the judiciary, and there again thr independence of the judiciary is extremely important J] believe.” _ “I have one fast mathematical question for you, You once said that you were a gambler, and it’s obvi- ous that you still are a gambler. De you think that your odds are getting better?” . “T think that I am in a better position than I ever have been. Once I’ve had this day in court, and I woule like to say right now without going into the merits of this case at all, that I feel that I have had procedural due process at this hearing without question, so that this case will be decided this time happily on its merits, I’m con- fident of that, and I feel that its’ going to be a fair and eq titanre—decision. , beeen