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CV Abe CV 98- 2 it was too dark. .He had no idea whether the people involved wore students or ovtsiders He added, however, while the fire men were attentping to catineuish the flanes approximately 30 individuals were invoived in an attempt to take the hoses away Irom the fire men. At this Sane time, stones were continuing to be thrown at the ROTC Builcng On Sunday, he advised *he spent the day with his girlfriend, fares pee tated that on Monday, May 4, 1970, his firct Se orrill Hall at 12:05. At that time he preecedcd throuch the Comsons, his normal route of travel, where be ohserved a gireantic crowd of people. At approximately three guacters of the way fthrouch the Commons, he had seer the National Guard and the crowd was told to disperse. At that time, tear gas was being thrown with some rocks being thrown by studegis 2nd tear ras being thrown back to the Rational Guard, acdvised that the crowd split into two sections, one wont Gonina Suyier ang dounsoen ilalt and the other srrour went around by the Womens! doriuitery. All he can recall was that there was 2 lot of tear fas being discharged and thot the students were returning the tear gas in the area of the National Guard. At this timc, he was proceeding up toward the gate over tho hill. Ue said all he could observe was a hancful of stucents throwing stuff at the National Guard, hovever, he had no idea what it was since he was from 1 =< 2 football ficlds ayvey., We said in that aren, there are not Many rocks dust gs Pew stieks ond chones a we we Srna te kee He docs recall} sat this time the students were retreating and then he heard sone shots being fired at which tine he hit the ground. He then observed a student lying in the street, believed to be JEFFREY HELLER. Fe ran toward him wivh the inte mnt of assisting. He belicves this was over by tho parking pate. While he was doing this, he observed Ne what appeared to him, several shots hitting the ground and . vad t- Twat OF fy t at ras ar winaws whi were ricechettines gus t 2n front of a proup Gi students, WoO Were helping JEYIREY NTLUER.,. Re did not see anyone fire these Shots; however, he loeked up and observed fovrr or Live guardsnen coning nerr that croup, it was at this time that the stuaents there rgobuked the National Guard and told them to get cut of there because they were trying to help this student who was already dead. YO